For Vegas darker renders, is a solution possible to solve this?

    Zitat von Vouk

    dream I will try to reproduce your exact scenario tommorrow. I still recommend using the "Limited" color range when using YUV. The footroom and headroom is used by some cameras for super-black / super-white. I've read this was a reserve in the good old analogue TV times.

    The problem with that, is when you upload that video to youtube, the video will also look "dark" if a user enables the full range in his browser/device or in the nvidia control panel.

    Like other people said, its a Vegas problem and the only solution at the moment, is to use the Vegas Pro level filter > Computer RGB to Studio RGB.

    Thanks for testing all that!

    • Offizieller Beitrag
    Zitat von dream

    The problem with that, is when you upload that video to youtube, the video will also look "dark" if a user enables the full range in his browser/device or in the nvidia control panel.

    That's not the point at this moment. Let's do a systematic approach and investigate this step by step. Currently we are investigate what goes into VEGAS and what comes out of it. What YouTube is doing with it is a different story (and investigation).

    At this point the video levels of the input ("Reference") source and the Output have been always identical. Show me video files where this is not the case and prove me wrong.


    Do the steps I did in my previous post, make screenshots and compare them to eachother.

    Just read your PDF.

    If you feed MPC with video with limited levels meta data, MPC will do a studio swing to full swing conversion. What you then see in MPC is not the source levels, it's the source levels converted/mapped according to the meta data.

    Now Vegas Pro ignores limited levels meta data and using the internal preview it will always map the source video data 1:1, no matter what the meta data says. Also the internal preview will always override your grafic card setting. So even if you set your grafic card to display studio swing as full swing, the preview will map the source video data 1:1.

    If you download this zipped file (with two video clips in it) and open both videos in MPC player and Vegas Pro you will see the video levels are different in MPC player but they are same in Vegas Pro. This is because the video stream of both files is exactly the same. The only difference is the levels meta data (which is ignored by Vegas Pro).

    This is desired behaviour for many pro users because it preserves data which would be clipped otherway and it prevents banding caused by the mapping. But it's up to the user to use additional display options, just like using the external preview (which will then use the grafic card setting) or external preview devices (with it's own settings).
    We consider the internal preview to be used just like a technical instrument (similar to a class-1 monitor device and the scopes) while at the same time we use an external preview for the aesthetic part of the job.

    2 Mal editiert, zuletzt von MajorBubble (22. November 2019 um 10:37)

    This time i recorded with Dxtory but it shouldn't matter, because i used UtVideo YUV420 BT.709 VCM.

    Mediainfo from reference (Source):

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    In the table view i try to demonstrate the problem with Vegas and lossless .avi files (i don't know if something else is also affected)

    Notice: These are the NVIDIA Control Panel settings i normally use, for this test i switched between limited and full and show the results in the table:

    Spoiler anzeigen

    Reference (.avi UTVideo 4:2:0 BT 709) Software x264 Output
    Limited (16-235)
    (NVIDIA Control Panel)    		 x264 Output
    Full (0-255)
    (NVIDIA Control Panel)
    Vegas Pro 15
    FFMPEG

    Vegas Pro 15 output

    As you can see the output from Vegas Pro 15 is "much" darker when full range is enabled in the NVIDIA Control Panel.

    This can be fixed by applying the Vegas Pro 15 filter "levles" > computer RGB to studio RGB.

    Then the Image would be bright on limited output, but would look like the source on full.

    Vegas Pro settings:

    Project settings and Voukoder settings are the same like in my comment about MSI Afterburner.

    Voukoder output mediainfo:

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    FFMPEG and other software

    FFMPEG, MeGUI and x264vfw (Each software is able to encode with x264) handles videos like the images show above next to FFMPEG.

    On limited range the image is brighter and on full range its like the reference source, when you have a .avi source recorded in bt 709, limited range (like i said i don't know if something else is also affected)

    FFMPEG settings:

    ffmpeg -i "input" -pix_fmt yuv420p -c:v libx264 -preset medium -crf 21 Output.mkv

    FFMPEG mediainfo:

    Spoiler anzeigen

    Somehow x264vfw with Vegas can output the video correct, but the process is a bit more complicated to write down, why i choose ffmpeg as an example above...

    And again its not a Voukoder problem, but a Vegas Pro problem :)

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Well, the questions we're discussing here is:

    Is VEGAS showing a wrong preview only or does it change the video levels on rendering?

    I don't think any NVIDIA settings is interfering with the calculations VEGAS is doing during rendering, does it?

    btw. I don't have the NVIDIA control panel installed and I never use that switch. So if you leave it on the default setting, would you have any issues at all?

    And please leave out all encoding and post processing. This is just about vegas.

    Zitat von Vouk

    Is VEGAS showing a wrong preview only or does it change the video levels on rendering?

    I think my knowledge is way to limited to answer that.

    I just wanted to make the point, that every other software i listed handles it like i described, so i thought that should be the norm.

    You need to distinguish between 3 different cases.

    1. Decoding

    2. Preview

    3. Encoding

    For the decoding process you need to know Vegas Pro will ignore any luma level meta data. It would not matter if your imported video is flagged as full level or limited level. Vegas Pro will (almost) always decode like it is full level (if I remember correctly WMV media is a very exception). It will map the video data 1:1.

    For the preview – as mentioned above– the internal preview will always ignore the settings of your graphic device and it will map the source levels 1:1.

    The external preview on a second display depends on the settings of your graphic device.

    Encoding then again is similar like the decoding process. In almost all cases Vegas Pro maps the source levels 1:1 for the encoding process while it does not set any levels meta data to the rendered file.

    Unfortunately, when encoding to H.264 MP4 Vegas Pro actually does set a level meta data, but this is always "limited", no matter what your levels really are and there is no way to modify that meta data within Vegas Pro (and this is the reason YouTube uploads from Vegas Pro often leads to unexpected results because the YouTube encoder reads the "limited level" meta data and then maps the level data accordingly, though if it already is full level this lets the video's peaks levels will be clipped in the end).

    This all is for 8 bit projects. Floating point projects are different because it uses ACES color management which needs proper configs for input data, project, display and output.

    So in short: In almost all cases, for the render process Vegas Pro maps the source level data 1:1. But you always need to take care of the levels meta data of the source media would have been ignored.

    I'm not aware of any graphic device setting would interfere here (Intel does not).

    3 Mal editiert, zuletzt von MajorBubble (22. November 2019 um 21:12)

    Thank you!

    With Voukoder 2.3 my lossless avi files get the correct colors, because i can use this code from ffmpeg in voukoder:

    ffmpeg -i "G:\test.mkv" -vf "scale=in_range=pc:out_range=tv" -pix_fmt yuv420p -c:v libx264 -preset ultrafast -crf 21 Output.mkv

    Now i get the correct colors in the output with

    1. .mp4 videos that i record with nvenc (There were always correct, so no need to use a filter)
    2. Lossless .avi (magicyuv, utvideo) files recored with dxtory, obs etc. when i use the Voukoder filter colorspace.

    colorspace filter setting for lossless .avi files recored in limited range:

    Output

    • Range: Limited
    • Matrix: BT.709
    • Primaries: BT.709
    • Transfer: BT.709

    Input:

    • Range: Full (The important one)
    • Matrix: BT.709
    • Prismaries: BT.709
    • Transfer: BT.709

    Thank you for your excellent work and fast responses.

    I now get correct results using the parameter filter for setting the "limited" and "full" flag. Good job.

    Hello I have a question! Now I am trying your encoder with Magix Vegas Pro 17 but I record my gameplay with Obs 709 and limited. So when I render the video for YouTube I use only the default filter colorspace for output (no input) for metadata? I can render with default Magix render but I can't read colorspace using mediainfo, but with your encoder + filter yes and so maybe for youtube is better with metadata colorspace 709 and limited. Sorry for my english but I hope you can read. :)

    Vegas shows wrong preview. This is "known feature". There is a plugin exists that can be used to "fix" that. If preview is on separate monitor, everything can be configured to be displayed correctly.

    So if you decide to add anything related to the "issue" in Voukoder, could you please do not make it "default"?

    Thanks.

    Vegas shows the file as it is, so the preview is correct.

    Vegas Pro 18 added a new 8-bit full range default where jpegs, full range and limited range video are all mapped to full range using metadata for video files. If a file isn't displayed properly you can manually change it from limited to full range. Vegas also has limited and full render settings upon export.

    I think Vouk is aware of this and the software modified to reflect changes in VP 18.

    Zitat von rsmith02

    Vegas shows the file as it is, so the preview is correct

    Well, it depend on what do you mean correct.

    Technically speaking you are right and it is correct as 235 is shown in preview not as pure white.

    However, after rendering to mp4 235 will be shown as pure white. "Hello video levels".

    So people sees in preview not what they will get after render and so many complains. I'm not complaining, I perfectly understand what is going on and why and I completely happy with it.

    This is why I called it "wrong".

    My only concern was a new voukoder's default option that will try to fix this.

    I asked that if such option implemented in voukoder -- it should be off by default so voukoder behaves the same way as other VP's encoders.

    P.S. Sure, I know about the new pixel format.